Israeli Forces Fire on Palestinian Civilians Amid Aid Delivery Chaos

@Gitananda said in #40:
> Of course it does. You said "So literally - 80% of the casualties could've been militants in this attack, and they would've reported it to you as 100% civilians." But since Israel (according to the U.S.) is bombing indiscriminately with 2000 lb. bombs and most of Gaza's population of over 2 million people are civilians then the majority of the casualties would *have* to be civilian.

Your premise and conclusion are both flawed.
That's not me taking a stance on the war-- it's just a response to the logical validity of your statement.

@clousems said in #41:
> Your premise and conclusion are both flawed.
> That's not me taking a stance on the war-- it's just a response to the logical validity of your statement.

I agree; in haste I carelessly responded to the wrong quote. I have since edited my statement.

@Gitananda said in #40:
> Of course it does. You said "Something to take into consideration, is that the main palestinian health authority literally doesn't distinguish between militants and civilians, and considers all casualties as civilians in its numbers" But since Israel (according to the U.S.) is bombing indiscriminately with 2000 lb. bombs and most of Gaza's population of over 2 million people are civilians then the vast majority of the casualties would *have* to be civilian. Therefore it doesn't matter that the main Palestinian Health Authority doesn't distinguishes between militants and civilians. We can simply estimate what percentage of Gazan's population are militants and that will be the approximate percentage of militants killed from indiscriminate bombing (which is a war crime).

That point is - it doesn't matter if that number is 1 or 99% - as long as the health authority reports 100% of casualties as civilians it is a purposeful manipulation of data and a lie. Yeah of course there are a lot of civilian casualties... but when your only source of information on what is happening isn't transparently telling the straight up truth, that erodes the credibility of the source.

Even Russia differentiates and acknowledges the difference between civilian and military casualties.

And is it wrong to have concerns with how the tunnel system in Gaza is being used - how do we know if the Hamas fighters are just sitting in there in safety while the every day Gazans take the brunt of the attack?

@twighead said in #43:
> That point is - it doesn't matter if that number is 1 or 99% - as long as the health authority reports 100% of casualties as civilians it is a purposeful manipulation of data and a lie. Yeah of course there are a lot of civilian casualties... but when your only source of information on what is happening isn't transparently telling the straight up truth, that erodes the credibility of the source.
>
> Even Russia differentiates and acknowledges the difference between civilian and military casualties.
>
> And is it wrong to have concerns with how the tunnel system in Gaza is being used - how do we know if the Hamas fighters are just sitting in there in safety while the every day Gazans take the brunt of the attack?

The health ministry can not distinguish between civilian and militant deaths because militant deaths are military information and Hamas would not allow them to publish that; therefore it's not necessarily deliberate misinformation on the part of the health ministry; they only have permission to count the overall dead bodies and the U.N. (who is there in Gaza) backs up their count. The point is not the exact percentage (but I gave a way to estimate that) the point is that *indiscriminate* bombing is a war crime that leads to unnecessary civilian death and suffering. re: how the tunnel system in Gaza is being used. Of course the tunnel system is a valid military target. Bombing a valid military target would not be 'indiscriminate bombing' as decried by the Biden administration.

@twighead said in #21:
> Something to take into consideration, is that the main palestinian health authority literally doesn't distinguish between militants and civilians, and considers all casualties as civilians in its numbers

No. They don't distinguish, which is not the same as "considers all casualties as civilians", but no one had suggested that. Lying would be claiming "all casualties are civilians" or "we killed 20.000 militants". Overwhelming civilians victims are being reported by other people in the ground (obviously not "independent sources", as they are being actively targeted and that could introduce a bias).

But in case you are interested in the actual numbers, independent research shows 60-90% civilians casualty rate.

@OctoPinky said in #45:
> No. They don't distinguish, which is not the same as "considers all casualties as civilians", but no one had suggested that. Lying would be claiming "all casualties are civilians" or "we killed 20.000 militants". Overwhelming civilians victims are being reported by other people in the ground (obviously not "independent sources", as they are being actively targeted and that could introduce a bias).
>
> But in case you are interested in the actual numbers, independent research shows 60-90% civilians casualty rate.

Well granted, it's quite difficult for anyone to know when they all wear civilian uniforms... so yeah, that 40-50% uncertainty does really matter, and that's why they need to report... Every other armed force in the world does it.

maybe Iran should throw some uniforms into the deal next time so the civilians aren't paying the price for Hamas' fight

Yeah sneaking around in civilian clothes is a great tactic, but guess who pays the price for it? Your own people. And frankly what's as sad as Israel's attack - is that their so called protectors don't care their own people die, and furthermore I think they love how terrible it makes Israel look. (logically - why would they have ever started this war, that they knew they would be crushed in... hint: it wasn't because they thought they stood the slightest chance militarily)

I didn't see Hamas making bomb shelters to protect their own people while they poured millions and millions into one of the most extensive well built tunnel systems in the world... to protect only themselves.

@twighead said in #46:
> [ Hasbara handbook rant ]

You should have stated this from the start, not creating false expectations.

@OctoPinky said in #47:
> You should have stated this from the start, not creating false expectations.
If you have anything to say, I mean go head - I haven't even read any of Israel's justifications. It's pretty obvious.

it's not like the common anti-israel story isn't a compilation of the latest propaganda either.

And trust my speech about the Israeli government is just as scathing,
It's just unnecessary because they get plenty of hate already

I mean is it that hard?
True or false - it's hard to tell whose who when your military wears civilian clothes

True or false - does wearing civilian clothes in an armed conflict lead to more civilian deaths?

True or false - Did Hamas spend massive amounts of money building a gargantuan tunnel network, while providing no protection for Palestinians? And where did that money come from? Might it have been better spent on aid?

It's not about being anti-palestinian, it's about holding the people who put them in this mess and essentially have thrown them under the bus accountable.

Fatah might be in a situation too, with Israel, but things are waaaaay better over there because Fatah is a far better government than Hamas is, and they're not trying to get all their citizens martyred

@twighead said in #48:
> If you have anything to say, I mean go head

No, thanks. You are constantly switching the point, a clear red flag in any discussion.

palestinians trample over each other so they get each other killed.
BAD IDF!!! APARTHEID ISRAEL!!! NAZI JEWS! GENOCIDE