more like 1.f4 Nh6!? 2.e4?! d5 and black as an initiative
Pls read the whole thread (as always) before giving your opinion tpr
Pls read the whole thread (as always) before giving your opinion tpr
@tpr How is kings gambit objectively better?
Accepting the gambit white is better in the From's Gambit, while Kings gambit objectively is barely equal if at all.
Subjectively you might want to play e4 because you like to be on the aggressors side of gambits, though then why would you play 1.f4 in the first place. :P
Accepting the gambit white is better in the From's Gambit, while Kings gambit objectively is barely equal if at all.
Subjectively you might want to play e4 because you like to be on the aggressors side of gambits, though then why would you play 1.f4 in the first place. :P
@ToLazyToGetAName Sorry, but I did read the whole thread before posting. I am not convinced that 1 f4 Nh6 2 e4 d5 is good for black.
@MoistvonLipwig I disagree with your evaluations From's gambit is good for white, King's Gambit is equal.
One reason to play 1 f4 e5 2 e4 is to lure an unprepared opponent into the King's gambit and confront a gambit player with a gambit. I once experienced this against a strong player. He surprised me with 1 f4, while I had prepared for his usual 1 d4 or 1 e4. He had looked through my games in databases and he had found several From's gambits as black and so he had prepared King's gambit against me. I suspect From's gambit is the reason why 1 f4 is so rare at top level (only Larsen), though the Dutch 1 d4 f5 enjoys more popularity (Carlsen, Botwinnik, Bronstein, ...). I somehow guess that From's Gambit for black is stronger than Staunton's Gambit 1 d4 f5 2 e4 for white.
@MoistvonLipwig I disagree with your evaluations From's gambit is good for white, King's Gambit is equal.
One reason to play 1 f4 e5 2 e4 is to lure an unprepared opponent into the King's gambit and confront a gambit player with a gambit. I once experienced this against a strong player. He surprised me with 1 f4, while I had prepared for his usual 1 d4 or 1 e4. He had looked through my games in databases and he had found several From's gambits as black and so he had prepared King's gambit against me. I suspect From's gambit is the reason why 1 f4 is so rare at top level (only Larsen), though the Dutch 1 d4 f5 enjoys more popularity (Carlsen, Botwinnik, Bronstein, ...). I somehow guess that From's Gambit for black is stronger than Staunton's Gambit 1 d4 f5 2 e4 for white.
#2 @todo_pro <------- what he said
Also there is one more idea, to go pure positional comp with the idea of controlling e4 with moves like Bf5 (I think this has been played by Larsen)
@ToLazyToGetAName
1... Nh6
damn what a move! certainly this will be a shock for the opponent
Also there is one more idea, to go pure positional comp with the idea of controlling e4 with moves like Bf5 (I think this has been played by Larsen)
@ToLazyToGetAName
1... Nh6
damn what a move! certainly this will be a shock for the opponent
@tpr Seems you are the only one here who thinks the From's Gambit is good for black. How would you improve mentioned lines then to make it good for black?
The reason why noone plays f4 (though, IIRC Danielsen plays it) is because it's not critical at all if black just builds up with d5, c5, g6 etc. (I played f4 myself when I was younger, but I think its at it's best as good as Grand Prix attack vs. Sicilian, though it's obviously a good weapon to surprise your opponent)
The reason why noone plays f4 (though, IIRC Danielsen plays it) is because it's not critical at all if black just builds up with d5, c5, g6 etc. (I played f4 myself when I was younger, but I think its at it's best as good as Grand Prix attack vs. Sicilian, though it's obviously a good weapon to surprise your opponent)
@MoistvonLipwig Ok maybe I am the only one here who believes in black's compensation. As mentioned above, I just develop pieces: Bg4, Nc6, Qe7, o-o-o instead of going for a quick g5 - g4 or Nf6 Ng4. Sure white has his pawn, but he has to suffer for it.
Fischer replied 1...c5 to Larsen's 1 f4 in their candidates' match of 1971, thus inviting the Grand Prix Attack 2 e4.
Fischer even played the Grand Prix Attack as black i.e. with one tempo less against dr. Saidy in 1969: 1 c4 e5 2 Nc3 Nc6 3 g3 f5 4 Bg2 Nf6 5 e3 Bc5 6 d3 f4 and black won in 36 moves.
Fischer replied 1...c5 to Larsen's 1 f4 in their candidates' match of 1971, thus inviting the Grand Prix Attack 2 e4.
Fischer even played the Grand Prix Attack as black i.e. with one tempo less against dr. Saidy in 1969: 1 c4 e5 2 Nc3 Nc6 3 g3 f5 4 Bg2 Nf6 5 e3 Bc5 6 d3 f4 and black won in 36 moves.
@tpr I am not saying Grand Prix is bad, I play it myself. I am just saying that I think against good black play this is as good as it gets for white. And if black goes d5 on move 1 it's not so easy to get that e4 move in that you would need (though often it is possible with d3 Nd2 first).
Playing Grand Prix with black is very sensible IMO since one tempo doesn't make that big of a difference in that opening so blacks opening disadvantage isn't too big.
And yes, white has to suffer a bit in that gambit, but objectively black doesn't have enough compensation. But if you know your opponent doesn't like defending you can try of course. (but at least I never was afraid of defending passive positions if I thought it was objectively good)
EDIT: Defending correctly becomes more difficult with shorter time control (as you might not have the time to figure out the best defense) so in online games which usually are blitz I do agree that it's very playable. But I wouldn't recommend it in long games.
Playing Grand Prix with black is very sensible IMO since one tempo doesn't make that big of a difference in that opening so blacks opening disadvantage isn't too big.
And yes, white has to suffer a bit in that gambit, but objectively black doesn't have enough compensation. But if you know your opponent doesn't like defending you can try of course. (but at least I never was afraid of defending passive positions if I thought it was objectively good)
EDIT: Defending correctly becomes more difficult with shorter time control (as you might not have the time to figure out the best defense) so in online games which usually are blitz I do agree that it's very playable. But I wouldn't recommend it in long games.
@MoistvonLipwig Ok maybe black's compensation is not enough in the From.
I am still puzzled as how 1 f4 d5 2 Nf3 c5 is good for black and the reason strong players do not play 1 f4, while 1 d4 f5 2 c4 Nf6 is decent for black, even good enough to play in matches for the World's Championship.
I am still puzzled as how 1 f4 d5 2 Nf3 c5 is good for black and the reason strong players do not play 1 f4, while 1 d4 f5 2 c4 Nf6 is decent for black, even good enough to play in matches for the World's Championship.
Thanks for all the advice! I'm liking the looks of 4...Nf6 with the idea of jumping to g4 as @todo_pro mentioned. I'm not entirely sure of all the nuances in that system so some more ideas on that would be appreciated. 1...Nh6 looks interesting as well, although I was looking to play something a bit more aggressive.
@tpr Dutch isn't exactly popular. But the reason you can play it is because with black you play to equalize while with white you play for advantage. Since the position stays kinda closed missing the tempo isn't THAT big of a deal, so if it's equal with white it might only be slightly worse with black (which is really ok).
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